Mandatory Oread and White Mage Buff Adjustment

[kekelordz]

Hello everyone

 

I would like to adress the issue of flat gains for Physical Defense through buffs that exist in the game. Those two buffs are WhiteMage Scroll and Archer's Oread Buff. 
They add 50 Relative Physical Defense ( a Flat gain of 50 ) , irrelevant to your defense levels.  One might ask, why would this be a problem, its just 5%.

Now if you understand how Defense Scaling works in this game, or any game that uses % Damage Mitigation, you would know that the higher your defense goes, the more impactful every single point of defense gained is.

 

( Damage calculation is  (Base Damage VS %Defense)- Flat Defense )  ~ so 915+814 Defense VS 10.000 Base incomming damage would be calculated (10000-81.4%)-915 = 1986-915 = 1071 Damage taken.

We will ignore flat defense in the examples because its not relevant to the issue at hand.

 

Example -  Archer with 500 Pdef(Relative)  ~ 10.000 - 50% = 5000 Damage taken ~ apply Oread +50 Def , it would be  10.000 - 55% = 4500 Damage taken. So for a "5% increase of defense, the damage mitigiated is actually 10% more compared to unbuffed status.

 

Example1- Archer with 700pdef(relative) ~ 10.000 -70% = 3000 Damage taken~ apply oread+50 def, It would be 10.000 - 75% = 2500 Damage taken. A 17% INCREASE OF DEFENSE

Example2- Archer with 800 Pdef(Relative) ~ 10.000 - 80% = 2000 Damage taken ~ apply Oread +50Def , it would be 10.000 - 85% = 1500 Damage taken.  A 25% INCREASE OF DEFENSE.

Example3 - Archer with 900Pdef(Relative) ~ 10.000 - 90% = 1000 Damage taken ~ apply Oread +50 Def, it would be 10.000 - 95% = 500 Damage taken. A 50% INCREASE OF DEFENSE

 

It works the same with White Mage scroll, which can even be applied ONTOP of the oread, so ur looking at a 1000 Defense char, and once def reaches 1000. Its zero damage taken by 100 million AP. 

 

The flat addition of 50 Defense doesn't seem to become a problem untill defense levels above 800, which we can obviously realistically reach with G12 gear and so on.

 

I've been thinking of a solution for this and honestly, the simplest way to adjust this without directly nerfing it for players who arent at extreme defense levels yet.

 

Up to 700 Pdef , Oread should add 50 Defense, all good and fine there. After your defense goes above 700, for EACH POINT ABOVE, Oread adds 0.2Def Less.

 

So basically for every 50 points higher u get, Oread is 10Def less.  Examples.

 

700 Pdef = Oread 50

750 Pdef = Oread = 40

800 Pdef = Oread = 30

850 Pdef = Oread = 20
900 PDef = Oread = 10

950 Pdef = Oread = 5 (This would scale 0.1Def less per defense above 900 I guess, to keep the buff useable)

 

Those gains, are ALL , still very very very powerful. But not absurd like they are currently.  The same would go for White Mage buff, and on application of Oread+WM Scroll, the Buffs should work from base defense, so if you are 800 Def, oread AND WM buff should both add 30 each, since they would go off of 800 Defense Base, simple logic there.

 

I hope I was clear explaining the issue, and expect feedback regarding this issue.(It has been around for atleast a year now, and still hasnt been looked at, Oread / WM buffed players running around immortal to physical damage).

Thanks for reading.

 

[Onionbear]

That is some creative number juggling there.  Sure it looks OP when you look at it relative to the adjusted damage vs base damage.  On the 10000 base damage it is still the same  500 all the way up.  Of course if you compare that to the adjusted damage after base defense the same 500 is a much higher percentage but really, it is still the same 500 across the board.

The buff is to add to base defense % and it is correctly. I do not see why a player should be punished for having better gear.  He should get the same 500 decrease as any other player. 

[IKuPAI]

We talked about this in game...

 

And somehow we kept showing up with extra damage mitigation based on different defense values...

 

Like 800 % def would take 2k dmg from 10k hit

Where 850 % (buffed) takes 1500 dmg

 

But at 900 % it takes 1k dmg and at 950% its 500 dmg...

 

Idk, i can't find the extra numbers this time...

 

 

 

Buttttt..... Regardless....

 

IF this proves to be accurate...

We should consider doing something for low defense 700%- also... This way we can see a variance in spiritual skills at lower levels too...

 

Ex: nado

 

 

In hetb if u got over 600 % mdef red mages did 0 dmg...

Something similar should be said for physical class dmg on nado.

Edited February 6, 2018 by IKuPAI

[kekelordz]

1 hour ago, Onionbear said:

That is some creative number juggling there.  Sure it looks OP when you look at it relative to the adjusted damage vs base damage.  On the 10000 base damage it is still the same  500 all the way up.  Of course if you compare that to the adjusted damage after base defense the same 500 is a much higher percentage but really, it is still the same 500 across the board.

 

There is no number juggling. Please if you have no endgame expirience and do not understand the issue at hand, refrain from commenting. Yes its 500 Across the board, but 500 damage at 90% Mitigation and 50% Mitigation is a significant diffrence. Think about this, oread is 12 Upgrades of Defense on G12 gear. A simple buff giving you 12X Upgrades of Defense when ur 10/10 set doesnt seem that problematic. But then you have a player with full 16defense, and he gets ANOTHER +12upgrades ontop of that, how can you ever expect to even deal damage to that player, even if you have 50.000 AP, he can mitigate 95% of it.

This is realistic numbers. For example I just tested with my friend, 761 Pdef Archer Lv300~ my fist does 6000 Finisher crits, and 3000 non finisher. When he puts Oread on, my damage goes down to 2000 nonfinisher & 4000 finisher criticals. 

Tell me, was the damage after he buffed with Oread mitigated by 5%?  6k vs 4k.   33.3% LESS DAMAGE DONE, due to a buff. And if was higher defense, the damage difference between Buffed with Oread and without would be even more extreme. 

The change I'm proposing isn't a crazy nerf of any sort. Think about it like this. If hes 761 Pdef, and 811(WithOread) ~ If its changed to what I'm proposing, the defense gain of oread in his case would be only 12.2 less ( 61*0.2 ), because hes 61 points above 700. Thus resulting in 799 Defense. That would still make oread a very powerful defense buff, but not 100% Ridiculous as it is right now.   The damage would go from 6k to maybe 4250? instead of 6k to 4k.  

The change is more aimed towards the 850~900 levels of relative Defense. Thats where Oread and WhiteMage buff are truly a issue.

 

Honestly, I think the adjustment might even need to be 0.2 less defense from 700-750, 0.23 less 750-800, 0.24 less 800-850, 0.25 less 850-900, and 0.1 less 900-1000

Thanks for trying to understand, but open your eyes. This is simple math and I can provide video evidence with Stat windows open, and damage comparisons for every tier of defense, except 900+

Edited February 6, 2018 by kekelordz

[Onionbear]

14 hours ago, IKuPAI said:

Like 800 % def would take 2k dmg from 10k hit

Where 850 % (buffed) takes 1500 dmg

 

But at 900 % it takes 1k dmg and at 950% its 500 dmg...

 

I am not sure why this confusing.  It is 5% off the base damage of 10K. This is 500.  It will always be 500 off of the 10K.  If you are at 700, 800 or 900 does not matter.  It is off the base damage, not the adjusted damage.  So it took 500 off the 2K making 1500.  It then took the same 500 of the 1K making it 500.  Always same amount off the base damage.

So based on your numbers of 6000 damage at 76.1% block assuming a base defense of say 650ish means you did about 28000 damage with that crit.  Oread would have knocked off 5% of the original 28000 or about 1400 damage making it about 4600.  Sounds about right.  Comes at a high attack cost for the archer so I don't really see the problem.

The problem seems to be more that it is possible to achieve 900 def %.  Maybe the gear needs a bit of nerf instead of the buff.

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Onionbear

[kekelordz]

Like I said, this is a endgame issue, you obviously have never played endgame so please ....

[delus1on]

I must Say,

 

I agry On this cause with the current g12 sets the Pdef gain is a real Thing.. if you add oread and white mage buffs its to op at endgame..

 

not sure if the adjustement that @Enemy suggests Will be enough.. Might Need to nerf it more..

but that’s Starting and testing I guess..

 

same issue for archers with Tc mdef buff and sylph and white mage buffs..

 

sylph adds 100 flat mdef.. should be lowered to 75 for sure..

 

Noto

[Kanoran]

Explain how when you use them they are fine but when you can't kill others for using them you cry and complain I was a mage fighting people with 800 -950 mdef and I still destroyed..... work around it time skills get a team can' expect to kill everyone 24 7 now the only thing I will say is the mdef tc buff and mdef buff sylph SHOULD NOT STACK but it's whatev

[kekelordz]

2 hours ago, Kanoran said:

Explain how when you use them they are fine but when you can't kill others for using them you cry and complain I was a mage fighting people with 800 -950 mdef and I still destroyed..... work around it time skills get a team can' expect to kill everyone 24 7 now the only thing I will say is the mdef tc buff and mdef buff sylph SHOULD NOT STACK but it's whatev

The topic is about Flat gains on physical defense buffs. Not Mdef. I hope you can try stay on topic.

[Kanoran]

how about this

 

1. Lets make White mage and Yellow mages actual accounts people will use. Meaning most of the community have a white and yellow mage sit in crystal room or a island defender NAKED to fully buff your main or party before entering the fight. Why not make it so that theres a range on the buffs? For example im going ghost castle and i got my yellow and white mage with me in crystal room i use the buffs enter ghost castle now they are removed. This would make it so you would have to  play a yellow mage or white mage on the island to keep your main account buffed which would make people either main support classes or try and play 2-3 accounts at once. 

 

2. Also lets talk about the amount you need to stat for these buffs with g12s added into the game and the higher stat requirements its impossible for a white mage at 300 to use a g12 set and white buffs and not be completely useless. a yellow mage might be able to but barely with having the entire set be 10 10 10 10 to use. I personally think the yellow and white for those scrolls need to be lowered in the amount needed to use them. 

 

3. Another suggestion would be for a blue mage you have 3 different kinds. Black mage White mage Blue mage but for a red mage you only have 2 Red mage and Yellow mage. Im wondering maybe make the yellow scrolls (cures ap buff attack speed etc) be on a new stat like black or white or make white mage scrolls become black mage scrolls.

Alot of hate will occur im sure but these are just some ideas i could see fixing alot of end game pvp issues the main issue id like to see fixed for season 3 is point number 1

[kekelordz]

I guess you can't stay on topic. Again, this is about Physical Defense flat buffs functionality with high levels of pdef.

[IKuPAI]

@kekelordz i think @Kanoran is just trying to say that we may not need to change the values of everything listed if we can change practical application of teamplay orientation for these buffs...

 

Fo example, oread wouldn't be a huge threat if team comp included both mages and physicals.

 

A lot of content change suggestions are based on 1/2 man teams... When we finally see 40vs 1 I'm sure archers will be grateful that they have this defensive opportunity at any bracket.

[kekelordz]

48 minutes ago, IKuPAI said:

@kekelordz i think @Kanoran is just trying to say that we may not need to change the values of everything listed if we can change practical application of teamplay orientation for these buffs...

 

Fo example, oread wouldn't be a huge threat if team comp included both mages and physicals.

 

A lot of content change suggestions are based on 1/2 man teams... When we finally see 40vs 1 I'm sure archers will be grateful that they have this defensive opportunity at any bracket.

 

........is your actual argument to this issue "You need 40v1" ?

[IKuPAI]

No, but i do think that a higher population isn't going to allow for so much gear creation...

 

Just like g12s cut back on 10/9 g11 sets (yea, supreme nurfs helped)

 

I think with higher population we'll see more commonly 13/13 sets among majority of players for pve... Then maybe 2 players will end up with a 16/10 set...

 

And that's likely because the are hoarding resources...

 

Seen it many times on kando/duan/gc...

 

One's tribe gets so big where the leader can't even farm the island he took... So he leaves tribe and creates a solo tribe... Obliterates his old team mates and ends up with the best gear, and in a 40v1...

 

HAWK isn't a direct example, and theres lots of conspiracy following that era... But in his legends never die video he wears binah and kites the physicals...

 

A similar situation can be said for oread... Aswell as sylph.

 

Many buffs on defense this season... Why target the already ruined white mage and incredibly squishy archer...

Edited February 8, 2018 by IKuPAI

[Onionbear]

I still think the buff is fine.  It is 5% across the board but comes at a cost.

Kanaron is right, the player has to make a choice.  Does he use an sylph for the mages or oread for the physical or alseide for attack.  You cannot have it all and it will cost one way or another.  Sure if you are just talking 1v1 then it seems unfair but then the loss of AP means he may not be able to kill you either.  But in a party vs party or nation vs nation then this becomes the choice.  If he chooses oread then let the mages take em.  Sylph and he's yours.  I am sure if you have a powerful mage with you he will go sylph.

Mages complain about sylph all the time now a physical complains about oread.  Same thing.

Archers have buffs that if used well can be very powerful. And they do come at a cost. Part of the game.  Strategy around it.

 

[IKuPAI]

3 minutes ago, Onionbear said:

Mages complain about sylph all the time now a physical complains about oread.  Same thing.

Gold.

[kekelordz]

2 hours ago, Onionbear said:

Mages complain about sylph all the time now a physical complains about oread.  Same thing.

 

Except there is a 25% Debuff for Magical Defense while the best and only debuff is from a Archer's bow and its 15%. 

 

2 hours ago, Onionbear said:

Archers have buffs that if used well can be very powerful. And they do come at a cost. Part of the game.  Strategy around it.

 

 

At what cost exactly is that? Let me put this in terms where you maybe understand.

 

A archer with 17 Defense set, when using oread , effectively has a full 19 defense set and two 20 defense pieces.
Or a archer with 16 defense set, when using oread, effectively has a full 18 defense set adn two 19 defense pieces.

18def set with two 19, or hell, 19def set with two 20s, that is equivalent to hundreds of 16 or 17 def items. How can a right click on ur char provide this?

2 hours ago, IKuPAI said:

Many buffs on defense this season... Why target the already ruined white mage and incredibly squishy archer...

 

 

This is an archer not even wearing full aplite set(using mystic cap) , two 11/14 sleevs( Very easy to make), a 16/10 sandal, and a 13/10 garb, all is VERY easy to make, so there is no ridiculous armor being worn, and yet look, ELEVEN players 280+ struggle to take it down effectively. ELEVEN PLAYERS using Stun, diffrent classes, basically everything you can bring to a fight, but hey, incredibly squishy....right.

I'd appreciate some proper replies by players who have expirience in endgame, not Kupa, or OnionBear.......

[IKuPAI]

I agree that +14 is fairly easy to make...

IF you have the resources... It's about 1/10 chance to make +14 As far as i noticed...

You're doing just fine with ur 9/8 jewlerys and +9 m cap and such, but for someone who can't farm seph cloths (etc) you beat your head on the wall buying peoples rh, and burning gear for +8 g11s...

 

I see your point that eventually one can take 0 damage...

And i believe that's why the older versions had awakening skills...

 

If g12 does this, how would u fix g15?

The same way... Improve offensive values.

[kekelordz]

21 hours ago, IKuPAI said:

If g12 does this, how would u fix g15?

 

G15 what are u smoking?

But in regards to "next sets" ~ who says they have to be higher defense? They can just have different effects. You cant keep giving more and more def on items. Doesnt work like that with % Defense gains.

 

And I tested 908 Pdef archer( Far from the best gear possible, VERY VERY FAR )  vs G3 8/8 Crow lv300 purestr blade with 8psa full jewlery, lv90+ pet.....he did a maximum finisher of 2500 critical. 

oread and whitemage buff need to give 1 Less pdef for every 4 pdef above 700, otherwise this is just 100% broken.

 

Hopefully this oread / WM buff goes through. I honestly think it should be adding 1 Less pdef for every 4 points above 700 Relative Pdef. So instead of 50 Pdef regardless of defense level. Upto 700 = +50 740 = +40 780 = +30 820 = +20 850-1000 = +15 so if ur pdef is 820, you can still reach 860def doublebuff. Which results in like 4-5k MAX finisher crits by 8/8 G3 Crow Pure STR blade wearing 90+ Pet and full 8psa jewlery. From 860 def to 908 , the damage goes from 4-5k crits down to 2-2.5k. Way too much of a defense gain from simple buffs

 

When the high defense doublebuffed char gets debuffed by G12 bow, damage becomes somewhat reasonable.

 

 

 

But when you are debuffed, it doesnt matter if your defense was 860 or 900. The damage diffrence isn't THAT noticable. But 860 Vs 900 Def w/o debuff.....its like a crazy diffrence. so I think if we expect to have people with 17Def sets and so on ( max is 20, no? ) ....should not give such easy access to 900+ to start with. 860 Debuffed , Crit by crow was like 10k 900 Debuffed, probably around 7-8k so its not a huge problem at those pdef levels. So simply changing oread and WM buff to lower their defense gains after pdef is 700( -1 Buff Defense bonus per +4Pdef above 700) would straight up fix this issue and people can actually PVP with blade and fist, without 100% requiring a archer debuffing present.

 

 

 

The damage done to chars when they are debuffed is not much diffrent at 860 or 900 pre-debuff defense. So the only physical defense issue currently is damage mitigated versus physical classes which can't debuff you. Damage diffrence of 858 or 908 defense without debuff...is massive.

 

 

 

@Shockdot Please look into Physical Defense Values of high-end gear chars when using White Mage Buff & Oread. Those two buffs make you invincible without g12bow debuffing you. Slight tuning plz?:)

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by kekelordz