Physical Defense FIX

[kekelordz]

Hi, this topic is here to adress the issue of Physical Defense gains on G12 gear through simple upgrades.

 

Current Levels of Physical Defense for every class at 16Set and 4x 8 Defense Ring. ( 9Defense Clergy and Seph gown for BM RM)

RM : 832 
BM: 832 
Fist : 844 
Blade: 869 
Archer: 840 

Current Levels of Physical Defense for every class at 15Set and 4x 7 Defense Ring. (9 Defense Clergy and Seph gown for BM RM)

RM: 804
BM: 804
Fist: 812
Blade: 837
Archer:808

Current levels of Physical Defense for every class at 14Set and 4x 6 Defense Ring. (9 Defense Clergy and Seph gown for BM RM)

RM:776
BM:776
Fist:780
Blade:805
Archer:776

 

Now for refference, Physical defense of a FULL +9 G11 set with 4x 8 Defense rings is around 740~760.

The current G12 Set defense is too high. Because of one reason, you are able to make simple upgrades such as 14>15 def, 6>7 rings and you are gaining points above 800Defense.

Why would this be a problem? Because when defense starts getting close to 1000 like this, Physical class's damage comes only from crits. And when your AP is mitigated by 80% or more, there isnt any AP left to multiply, and you are left with laughable damage unable to kill players with 10 hours invested into their gear. While you spent 500 hours on your AP.

 

Here is a simple demonstration of the crazy effect points above 800 defense have so everyone can understand the value of these points correctly.

Example:  Archer 15Def Cap sandal Garb Sleev & 1x Sleev14.  Rings 4x 7 Defense. Pdef 804
Blade: 2064STR, 17Sword, 600+SoulCharm, 86 Pet, 8/8 Neck, 8 Bands, AP 10330.

https://gyazo.com/a86b5d0563fb432a81fee0f4d33f208a

Example2.  Archer uses Oread so his defense goes up to 834.

https://gyazo.com/024a61553b856222b7bd6582ee1a6974

The Blade warrior's damage went down from 6.1k Finisher to 5k Finisher crits. Just from simple 30 points. Thats a 20% loss of damage. And keep in mind currently that archer can push his defense far higher, up to 870 buffed with oread.  That will result in the blade warrior dealing 4000 crits finisher, if not less. Aka laughable damage. Also keep in mind the blade having OVER 10K AP is BY FAR standard AP of blades. This is close to maximum you can reach, a couple 100 more is what I can get but thats it.

Why does this work like this? Its a simple game of percentages. When Def is 800. That means Blade's AP is midigated by 80%. so theres 20% left to multiply into crit before its deducted by flat pdef.  When def is 870. Theres 13% of his AP left to multiply. So you are basically losing nearly half your damage versus a target who increased his defense from 800 to 870. 

These points, clearly prove to have IMMENSE VALUE AGAINST PHYSICAL CLASSES. 

You ask yourself, why not just buff the AP of Physicals then? thing is, it doesn't matter how much AP the melee has, if the midigation is so high, theres barely any AP left to multiply into crit. Plus the fact physicals do very good damage when their targets are debuffed. Archer's Debuff takes 15% Of the target's current defense. So going from 800 Defense, you go down to 680. Turning 20%AP crits into 32% AP crits. Then you see blades and fists start being big threats in PVP as they should be.

 

So now that is cleared up and hopefully understood by everyone. What can be done to solve this issue? The answer is rather simple. Looking at G12 sets, the levels of defense you are reaching even with a 10/10 set is quite ridiculous. Instantly competing with a full +9 G11 set just by crafting 1 of each items. This is caused by the Set 4 Bonus that every class has on their G12 set.  "+5% Defense".  Its not really "5%". Its a flat 50 Defense gain. yeah on paper its 5%. But when you add those 50 def ontop of a 800 defense char, you end up giving that char an additional 25% Defense, due to the fact you closed the gap to 1000 def by 25%.  800->850.  

What I FIRMLY BELIEVE that needs to happen is  SET 4 bonus needs to be lowered from 50 Defense down to 10 Defense. 

 

This results in Physical defense levels REACHING 800 or slightly above for melees, with FULL 16 sets and 8 rings x4.
This would create a enviroment where you need to EARN those points above 800 def.  Example, going 17 defense on items.  9 Defense on rings, 10 Defense on your seph gown, and so on.  Those upgrades are deserving of giving you points which have such immense value. Not 14 to 15 defense items. or 6 to 7 on rings. Way too simple upgrades for such crazy impact on physical defense levels.

Ofcourse with this change the archer's debuff would need a slight adjustment in order to not overkill the damage on debuff. 
So for example, if the current defense is 800. Debuff taking 15% is 800->680. So if def would be 760, debuff taking 10% would be  760->684.  

If defense isn't surpassing 800, physical classes can strive towards improving their AP and possibly have a chance at PVPing individually while presenting some sort of competitive threat, unlike now if you aren't completely decked out with 1000s of hours invested into your char, and fighting someone who is FAR BELOW your level and without somewhat upgraded gear, you simply can't kill your targets doing pure shit damage.

 

@shockdot  why hasn't this fix happened yet? Please think of 2/5 of your playerbase trying to pvp and failing miserably due to the fact they dont have a archer debuffing for them 24/7.

Plus the fact this issue is causing the PVP Dynamix to be completely bullshit.  There can be 10 People in pvp, for example 2 mages, 6 melees, and 2 archers.  When the fight starts, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS KILL THE TWO ARCHERS, and boom, you effectively killed the 6 melees aswell, switch your focus to the mages and ignore those 6 melees, they dont do anything anyways, no threat presented due to the fact everyone's pdef is 800 or nearing it, and some people even surpassing it quite considerably.

and just a fyi. the GIF example where the blade has 10300 AP , this is FAR above average AP, and for fist warriors the issue is even worse. Their AP doesn't reach such levels. So when you have 6500~7500 AP midigated by 80~85%, theres nothing left to multiply, your damage gets totally destroyed by the flat defense alone, resulting in fists tickling for 2k crits. 

 

PLEASE GIVE MELEES A OPTION TO INDIVIDUALLY PVP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by kekelordz

[Gannicus_1099]

my fist critical 1500-3000 vs  noob set i am 9/8 g3 kata 9/8 neck

why no dmg

[Dynamix]

I do agree that something needs to be done to the Pdef atm. Its way to high without the archer debuff (im speaking from a mage's perspective)

As a only 281 RM with potato set (15/12 15/12 13/12 13/12 13/12) 3x 7 def rings 1x 6...
I can tank 2x level 300 fist with g3 kata, 1x even with 9/8 kata and 9/8 neck....
I think we can all agree a 281 rm should not be able to tank 2x 300 fist with katas... (At least not with my current set and jewels)

What i think should be done is the same as Enemy says, lower the pdef you gain from the set bonus.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY nerf archer debuff IF Pdef nerf happens on the class sets, so it matches with how low it gets it atm, so its the same with debuff now as it will HOPEFULLY become.

 

At this point playing a blade/fist without a pocket full vit archer, what can you do? Thats right NOTHING. (unless you only wanna kill people with g11 sets or 80 levels lower than you)

 

~~ Dynamix

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Dynamix

[CrixUsss]

300 lvl blade 1800 str 8/7 neck   8 band 8400 ap rm max crit 2500  only need archer for pvp game is realy bad      fist balde realy bad class for pvp    now game mages game...

[Kratos]

No need. just mages reduced def.

[keke8929]

42 minutes ago, Kratos said:

No need. just mages reduced def.

If you are going to comment, don't come with such biases towards certain classes.  All classes' physical defense is too high, not just mages.

[Kratos]

1 hour ago, keke8929 said:

If you are going to comment, don't come with such biases towards certain classes.  All classes' physical defense is too high, not just mages.

You want to remove the G12 feature .Then you do not need g12. G11 enough. No need. It's better to be like this. My idea.
.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Kratos

[keke8929]

34 minutes ago, Kratos said:

You want to remove the G12 feature .Then you do not need g12. G11 enough. No need. It's better to be like this. My idea.
.

 

I'm sorry but did you read what I wrote in the first post? There is nothing written about removing G12 features.  Its about the ridiculous gain from Set 4 bonus which needs an adjustment. Its clearly causing issues for melee players up to the point they don't even bother going to PVP anymore.

[buetti09]

I agree that there needs to be some changes to the physical defense. It can't be, that a fist or blade needs to rely 24/7 on the archer debuff in pvp.
Last season it only made fun to play a blade, because there was always an archer around, that could debuff everyone for me.
The best solution to solve that problem is reducing the 4 part set effect bonus from 50 defense to 10. At the same time the g12 bow needs to be adjusted.

With the current pfef it's possible for every class to reach between 880-920 pdef, when a white mage is around.
With a 2k str blade, 8/8 psa/pa neck, 8 psa bands, 1k sc, 8/8/7/6 g3 crow I was hitting max. 1.5- 2,5k finisher crits on an archer with 920 pdef ;(

@keke8929 could you add an example that shows your dmg, if you use oread and wm buff?

 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by buetti09

[Kratos]

Team play and debuffing is bad for archers

[Gannicus_1099]

lol kratos u class fist u hit 60 damage all class  all 1 hit you you are noob

your post only lie only trash

Edited June 5, 2018 by Gannicus_1099

[Kookz12]

+1

[Gannicus_1099]

fist blade no class pdef nerd     only need nerf -4 mages 

[IKuPAI]

I avoided commenting on this because i wanted to see public oppinion on the matter.

 

Good proposal and devastating delivery!

 

However, i offer a counter proposal.

 

I believe that set bonuses are what set g12s apart from all the other tiers of gameplay. This being said; i am influenced to protect the 4 piece bonus in particular. This small bonus is not the easiest no notice when you are starting out, but switching from a 9/8 (for example) to a 10/10 can be mistaken for 12/12 values if a player is comparing values between the 8 and 10/10 without the 4 piece bonus.

 

I would suggest lowering the % values per level (possibly by fractions). Or making the values progressively more important. 

 

Along with this the mark should be considerably less of a modifier. And fist warrior and blade's g12 should mark instead of enrage.

*Drops keyboard*

*Exit stage right*

[ivmich300]

I agree a nerf needs to happen I was tanking waxon pretty sure strongest archer in seasonal in a drop jewel set. Now I'm not saying only nerf mage cause well there is legit 1 tribe with 4 mages that' making people rage but everyone else is a archer fist and blade. the nerf needs to be equal it's bad enough the proc on a g12 staff is so unlikely that it's almost impossible to get a proc and combo on a fist or blade. what were seeing now is archer a class that used to be the best 1v1 class have to go full vit to tank mages or blade with a crow. archer got messed up in g12s cause you made stun bows and mana bows for 201+ content pointless a archer HAS to use a g12. On the topic of stuns you can stun a archer or fist see the word stun but this so called CHANCE seems to be instantly which is why most don't use stuns. only viable mana drain is a mana gaunt so why have a slow sword stun sword mana bow or stun bow in the game if none of them get used anymore? but yes a pdef nerf on g12s needs to happen but also mdef on a valk or binah also and clergy and Seph gown all these need to get changed. Every other game once a new end game set is released that becomes the best set in game but u never see fist use a g12 protector and blade use a g12 shield cause tri shield and binah and ap protector are more viable. 

[keke8929]

Also forgot to mention,   how come Blade set is 25 Points above Fist set in terms of just base values on items.  29 above Archer.  kinda too much free def. 

Probably best would be  lower vambs def by 2, helmet boots by 3, armor by 5. Total of a 15 base defense reduction on blades.

Fist 4 Def above archer, blade 10 def above fist, totally enough lol.

[ivmich300]

On 6/4/2018 at 11:43 AM, Kratos said:

No need. just mages reduced def.

so many people complain about mages but why don't you hear mages saying hey how come fist blade archer all get to stock up high stats and 4500hp 3x g3 but on a mage yes you can use desaus but your paying the price. you take more damage constantly + desaus ignore mana barrier the only reason to ever use a desau on a mage is to get over 10k health to live a scatter or ice stinger or wide fury if your mana barrier drops.. Hell I'd love to use desaus but I see no point so do the pdef nerf to all classes reduce the archer debuff and fix other things mages don't need anymore nerfs after the pdef drop

Edited June 7, 2018 by ivmich300

[shockdot]

We've delayed replying to this post so that we could get a more accurate and general consensus regarding the topic. It would seem that most want this change, or at least something similar.

 

Some quick numbers using an Archer as an example (This isn't a quote)....

Quote

 

BuildA
    - 1287 + 740 PDEF (770 with all buffs)
    - 750 + 748 MDEF (872 with all buffs)
    - +9 Mystic Set
    - 8/8 Rings
    - 8/8 Bands

BuildB
    - 1287 + 740 PDEF (770 with all buffs)
    - 750 + 676 MDEF (793 with all buffs)
    - +9 Mystic Set
    - 8/6 Rings
    - 8/6 Bands

BuildC
    - 887 + 820 PDEF (850 with all buffs)
    - 750 + 708 MDEF (828 with all buffs)
    - 15/12 Aplite Set
    - 8/8 Rings
    - 8/8 Bands

BuildD
    - 887 + 820 PDEF (850 with all buffs)
    - 750 + 636 MDEF (749 with all buffs)
    - 15/12 Aplite Set
    - 8/6 Rings
    - 8/6 Bands

 

Example Damage: 10000
Resulting Damage with BuildA: 10000 - 1287 - (10000 * 0.74) = 1313
Resulting Damage with BuildC: 10000 - 887 - (10000 * 0.82) = 913
Resulting Damage with BuildC At 1% instead of 5%: 10000 - 887 - (10000 * 0.78) = 1313

 

 

Looking at the above examples, we don't think changing 5% to 1% would be a bad idea. As this leaves you with equivalent damage being done to a max level 11 set (+9 with 8 def rings). The change would require lowering the archer debuff from level 12 equipment. As well as testing on all classes.

 

For the season server (and the Triumphus server once season is over)...

That being said, I don't exactly like the fact that a 15/12 set is considered a high-end equipment set (considering there are 5 more def levels and 8 more magic defense levels). So I think we really need to look at changing the difficulty of upgrading level 12 equipment in general so that higher values are obtainable. Obviously with this change, this would mean that def & mdef values of all level 12 equipment stats would change. Having 15 DEF would not stack up to a +9 set, but would be somewhere in between a +8 and a +9 set. This would allow us to make it easier to upgrade to say a 15/15 set, and thus easier to obtain levels like 18/19/20. This same concept applies to weapons (as we've seen that thread also). This specific change would be only available on the Season Server, and would then transfer to the Triumphus server when this season ends.

 

We would love to hear thoughts about this from players.

 

[keke8929]

Considering this is only regards to Physical defense,  15/12 set is the bare minimum players run. And in all honesty, if you expect to survive for more than a couple combos versus high level mages, you WILL get deleted.  15/15 Set is probably best endgame gear players can strive for, maybe 16/14 on some classes, depending on builds.

I would NOT touch rates for armors AT ALL. Values such as 17/12 gear , 16/14, 15/15,  16/16  is obtainable. 18 maybe quite hard.  But I think those levels of gear should be reserved for very hard upgrades. If 5%->1% happens. The current difficulty of obtaining certain values of defense is 100% reasonable. Allowing easier upgrades on gear, would make everyone unkillable pretty much.  15/15 makes you a beast in pvp, 4-5 players on you, and you can probably shake them off and keep going. 

Althou, if the rates were adjusted, then the gains of gear could also be adjusted? Probably something that requires a lot of careful value checking, otherwise, as I said, everyone will end up being unkillable.

 

15/12 is far from endgame.  15/12 is minimum requirement to even enter PVP and consider surviving for a couple minutes a option. 15/15 set might allow you to see the end of the fight. anything above 15/15 set....well...is defense gains well deserved imo.  Gear is hard to make. One stat to 15 , not so hard, 2nd stat, hell gate open.

 

Ty for the feedback and I would love to see how the game would look if 5% -> 1% happens. Atleast from the perspective of a melee, there is quite a few of us.

[Kratos]

On 07.06.2018 at 11:53 PM, shockdot said:

We've delayed replying to this post so that we could get a more accurate and general consensus regarding the topic. It would seem that most want this change, or at least something similar.

 

Some quick numbers using an Archer as an example (This isn't a quote)....

 

Looking at the above examples, we don't think changing 5% to 1% would be a bad idea. As this leaves you with equivalent damage being done to a max level 11 set (+9 with 8 def rings). The change would require lowering the archer debuff from level 12 equipment. As well as testing on all classes.

 

For the season server (and the Triumphus server once season is over)...

That being said, I don't exactly like the fact that a 15/12 set is considered a high-end equipment set (considering there are 5 more def levels and 8 more magic defense levels). So I think we really need to look at changing the difficulty of upgrading level 12 equipment in general so that higher values are obtainable. Obviously with this change, this would mean that def & mdef values of all level 12 equipment stats would change. Having 15 DEF would not stack up to a +9 set, but would be somewhere in between a +8 and a +9 set. This would allow us to make it easier to upgrade to say a 15/15 set, and thus easier to obtain levels like 18/19/20. This same concept applies to weapons (as we've seen that thread also). This specific change would be only available on the Season Server, and would then transfer to the Triumphus server when this season ends.

 

We would love to hear thoughts about this from players.

 

What will the G12 be ? It's better to use the G11. Already G12 14/14 or higher is quite difficult. G12 should be a feature that distinguishes g11. I look negatively. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Kratos

[IKuPAI]

@shockdot @keke8929

I think that this is a great idea. Scaling the items to be easier to upgrade and lowering the values provided, making the sets we wear now more tailored to an 18/18 set instead of a 15/12 set would be nice to see!

 

however, everyone is already going to be soooo mad about putting all that effort and resources into their sets they wear right now.

 

reading your reply immediately devalued my 15/12 set which IS NOT bare minimum, and is ACTUALLY top tier... 14/10 is a bare minimum set. 

Having 915(788) pdef

and 750(758) mdef

on my fist in an incomplete 15/12 set I would be very sad to see this disappear right before the season ends.

However, I would find great value in improving my AP from 5.5k to something reasonable.

 

If armor rates were to change I believe that they would need to be scaled to the proper defensive values. ex: 15/12 = 17/15 after update

but that means that weapons would also need scaling? turning a 17/12/12/12 into a 19/15/15/15?

and 16/12/12/12 into 18/15/15/15?

does this allow room for sup sephs to upgrade them to 15 safely? should we expect +10 safe on g12?

DO WE ALL STOP UPGRADING NOW?!

CAN WE CONTINUE UPGRADING safely without wasting materials from today until... whenever the update happens?

 

so many questions!

[keke8929]

34 minutes ago, IKuPAI said:

@shockdot @keke8929

I think that this is a great idea. Scaling the items to be easier to upgrade and lowering the values provided, making the sets we wear now more tailored to an 18/18 set instead of a 15/12 set would be nice to see!

 

however, everyone is already going to be soooo mad about putting all that effort and resources into their sets they wear right now.

 

reading your reply immediately devalued my 15/12 set which IS NOT bare minimum, and is ACTUALLY top tier... 14/10 is a bare minimum set. 

Having 915(788) pdef

and 750(758) mdef

on my fist in an incomplete 15/12 set I would be very sad to see this disappear right before the season ends.

However, I would find great value in improving my AP from 5.5k to something reasonable.

 

If armor rates were to change I believe that they would need to be scaled to the proper defensive values. ex: 15/12 = 17/15 after update

but that means that weapons would also need scaling? turning a 17/12/12/12 into a 19/15/15/15?

and 16/12/12/12 into 18/15/15/15?

does this allow room for sup sephs to upgrade them to 15 safely? should we expect +10 safe on g12?

DO WE ALL STOP UPGRADING NOW?!

CAN WE CONTINUE UPGRADING safely without wasting materials from today until... whenever the update happens?

 

so many questions!

 

15/12 set is far from top tier. seriously far from it.  16/15  16/14  15/15 14/16  is top tier. Anything above is godlike items.  Maybe make items SLIGHTLY easier to upgrade in the upcomming season, but would require slight adjustments of values so it wont be easier to reach high levels of defense as of right now.

 

@Kupa hell no, why u want free weapons and free gear? 

Make weapon rates realistic, not 3000hours for a 19.  Change set bonus 50 to 10.  See how things go.  Change weps, bonus, gear at once? yea ok, might aswell break the game rn. Too much too fast.  Giving people a option to reach high end weapons, NOT GIVE FREE WEPS, just a option to go for it, would be nice already.

and Kupa if ur 5.5k AP, your weapon is not the problem lmao. My nado fist is 6.5k

[ivmich300]

this idea shockdot propoed has its ups and downs upside being would be a great sales pitch for season 4 with new CONTENT being added to the mix to make it active. downside would be we wasted 2 months of farming and mats to have our current sets be useless.

also what about a dam g12 recycler... it's 1 thing to get high stats it's a whole different ball game to get the stats you want. for example did 23 staffs 1 or 2 weeks ago had 4 get msa.....so for the other 19 staffs it's atleast 30tc per costing 570tc if it only takes 1 gem to get that stat. with a recycler it would atleast give me 1 or 2 more with msa lol

 

ps none went to 15 msa 1 went 15 ma 

Edited June 7, 2018 by ivmich300

[Kratos]

On 07.06.2018 at 11:53 PM, shockdot said:

Looking at the above examples, we don't think changing 5% to 1% would be a bad idea. As this leaves you with equivalent damage being done to a max level 11 set (+9 with 8 def rings). The change would require lowering the archer debuff from level 12 equipment. As well as testing on all classes.

 

 

 

Already killed with another change. With this change the archer class will die. be considered dead class %5->%1 very bad.  %3 maybe. With this change you will lose the player

Edited June 10, 2018 by Kratos

[keke8929]

Archer is not affected by this change at all. "Dead class". I don't think you are understanding what ur typing lol.