G12 Weapon Difficulty vs Reward.

[keke8929]

Hi, due to the concern of most of the active player base 201+ and myself I am writing this.

 

G12 weapons, how do they compare to G11?  10/10/10/10 is +8   15/12/12/12 is +9  in terms of AP.

What are we seeing? There is a rather obvious pattern, every single high level weapon is X/12/12/12. The last 3 stats don't even exist. They are always upgraded by supremes.
This is caused by the difficulty of upgrading weapons between 10~15.  Going 16 or 17 isn't exactly the hardest thing, but getting up to 15 is a immense challenge for 90%+ of the players.

How can we expect to surpass G11 weapons by a amount where our damage can even begin to compare to the defensive gains G12 armors are offering?

People are crafting 50 weapons, farming for days and days collecting materials, just to end up with a weapon thats probably no higher than 16 PSA or 16MSA. Then they are obviously(nearly) forced to not even consider risking past 16/6/6/6 because that one 16 was damn hard to make.

Now looking past 16. Realistically, even if you are controlling islands, sucking the material economy dry, online for 15 HOURS A DAY, the odds you will be able to try more than just a few weapons 16 to 17 are pretty slim.

Myself, I am in a position where I have a 17/12/12/12 sword. Made by sheer luck to be honest. I can't even think about a 18. Its too hard. I'd need a couple hundred weapons, and if u know what ur doing , a single weapon materials collected takes you about 1-2hours, depending on the weapon. So if the philosophy is, you need to farm 500 hours for a single 18 weapon whose PA, Crit, ASR will never see a value above 12 12 12...I think we're in a situation which isn't exactly satisfying for anyone.

 

How can one player even get to 19? Is it even worth it? You are looking at THOUSANDS of hours, for a few 100 AP. Realistic? I wouldn't say so.

Focusing on the issue.  From what I've seen, upgrading between 15 and 20 seems proper difficulty. The gains aren't massive for PSA weapons, but PA makes up for it, althou PA can't ever really be upgraded past 12 because its not worth the risk.

The problem right now is GETTING A DAMN WEAPON TO 15. Its insane, so many weapons, barely make a 15.

Proposed suggestion

Increase the Safe levels of weapons from 6 to 10.  If a player wants to advance from G11 to G12, He should be able to make a "+8" weapon without any risk. Especially due to the fact he isn't guaranteed perfect stats in the first place.

 

Quote

The current difficulty levels between 6 and 10 should replace the difficulty levels between 10 and 14 currently.  Above 14 I think the rate to 15 could stay, and the rates past 15 to remain unchanged.

 

Supreme sephiroths to 12 is something I would keep, MAYBE put it to 13.

Are we forgetting why are we playing this game? for FUN. I am seeing more and more people(201+) , login, and simply get frustrated due to the fact they can't make G12 weapons that are in any way competitive. There is no entertainment value from crafting weapons. You are shitting your pants everytime, because you just put in so much work, for a very slim chance to even reach 16.

I think making weapons should be fun, people should have a option to strive for 19 weapons.  Even if someone gets lucky and makes a 19, so damn what. Its not like hes 1hitting everyone all of a sudden. Physical weapons scaling 16>17>18>19 arent giving AP gains that are crazy significant. They are just nice to have. Weapons should be nice to look at. you have THREE OTHER STATS TO UPGRADE.  17/17 psa pa weapons should be a thing.  19 msa sexy staffs should be around. 

Everyone in my tribe has given up on making weapons, after you get that one 16 or 15 weapon, honestly, attempting for a higher upgrade, seems pretty stupid, you reached a +9, going past it is so risky and time consuming, might aswell focus on something else like your armors or jewlery, get some gains there. Weapon to 18 is the last thing on peoples minds.

plus the fact in SIX MONTHS we have seen what, maybe a total of 10 +17 weapons throughout the WHOLE COMMUNITY. This is basically nothing. 

 

Shockdot, please consider this. Players are getting frustrated and losing hope of making a 18.  19 is only a dream. And even IF those weapons somehow magically are made. Its forever 18/12/12/12. 

[Dynamix]

+1
Please make this happen.
Making any weapon above 16 psa/msa is fooking impossible unless ur stupid lucky...
 

 

[buetti09]

52 minutes ago, keke8929 said:

Hi, due to the concern of most of the active player base 201+ and myself I am writing this.

 

G12 weapons, how do they compare to G11?  10/10/10/10 is +8   15/12/12/12 is +9  in terms of AP.

What are we seeing? There is a rather obvious pattern, every single high level weapon is X/12/12/12. The last 3 stats don't even exist. They are always upgraded by supremes.
This is caused by the difficulty of upgrading weapons between 10~15.  Going 16 or 17 isn't exactly the hardest thing, but getting up to 15 is a immense challenge for 90%+ of the players.

How can we expect to surpass G11 weapons by a amount where our damage can even begin to compare to the defensive gains G12 armors are offering?

People are crafting 50 weapons, farming for days and days collecting materials, just to end up with a weapon thats probably no higher than 16 PSA or 16MSA. Then they are obviously(nearly) forced to not even consider risking past 16/6/6/6 because that one 16 was damn hard to make.

Now looking past 16. Realistically, even if you are controlling islands, sucking the material economy dry, online for 15 HOURS A DAY, the odds you will be able to try more than just a few weapons 16 to 17 are pretty slim.

Myself, I am in a position where I have a 17/12/12/12 sword. Made by sheer luck to be honest. I can't even think about a 18. Its too hard. I'd need a couple hundred weapons, and if u know what ur doing , a single weapon materials collected takes you about 1-2hours, depending on the weapon. So if the philosophy is, you need to farm 500 hours for a single 18 weapon whose PA, Crit, ASR will never see a value above 12 12 12...I think we're in a situation which isn't exactly satisfying for anyone.

 

How can one player even get to 19? Is it even worth it? You are looking at THOUSANDS of hours, for a few 100 AP. Realistic? I wouldn't say so.

Focusing on the issue.  From what I've seen, upgrading between 15 and 20 seems proper difficulty. The gains aren't massive for PSA weapons, but PA makes up for it, althou PA can't ever really be upgraded past 12 because its not worth the risk.

The problem right now is GETTING A DAMN WEAPON TO 15. Its insane, so many weapons, barely make a 15.

Proposed suggestion

Increase the Safe levels of weapons from 6 to 10.  If a player wants to advance from G11 to G12, He should be able to make a "+8" weapon without any risk. Especially due to the fact he isn't guaranteed perfect stats in the first place.

 

 

Supreme sephiroths to 12 is something I would keep, MAYBE put it to 13.

Are we forgetting why are we playing this game? for FUN. I am seeing more and more people(201+) , login, and simply get frustrated due to the fact they can't make G12 weapons that are in any way competitive. There is no entertainment value from crafting weapons. You are shitting your pants everytime, because you just put in so much work, for a very slim chance to even reach 16.

I think making weapons should be fun, people should have a option to strive for 19 weapons.  Even if someone gets lucky and makes a 19, so damn what. Its not like hes 1hitting everyone all of a sudden. Physical weapons scaling 16>17>18>19 arent giving AP gains that are crazy significant. They are just nice to have. Weapons should be nice to look at. you have THREE OTHER STATS TO UPGRADE.  17/17 psa pa weapons should be a thing.  19 msa sexy staffs should be around. 

Everyone in my tribe has given up on making weapons, after you get that one 16 or 15 weapon, honestly, attempting for a higher upgrade, seems pretty stupid, you reached a +9, going past it is so risky and time consuming, might aswell focus on something else like your armors or jewlery, get some gains there. Weapon to 18 is the last thing on peoples minds.

plus the fact in SIX MONTHS we have seen what, maybe a total of 10 +17 weapons throughout the WHOLE COMMUNITY. This is basically nothing. 

 

Shockdot, please consider this. Players are getting frustrated and losing hope of making a 18.  19 is only a dream. And even IF those weapons somehow magically are made. Its forever 18/12/12/12. 

+1

[HateBreeder]

yes

[IKuPAI]

As much as I enjoy holding the record for +18 ;D 

This is probably the best fix imo...

Safe to 10(not 6)

And safer rates from 10-15...

I agree 15-18 seems heavy on the RNG... and rightfully so... (Should stay the same)

But yes, replacing my +8 is stoopid difficult.

[Machine]

+1

[B0n13]

+20000

[Frostbite]

+1 to this

[ivmich300]

honestly the best post made by far. which is why some people rather g11 weps cause it's easier.

 

now if your not open to increasing the odds then atleast reduce the cost of the materials to craft. gc rates can stay the same it' already nice but outside of gc would need a increased drop rate if your not gonna change the chance of making 16s or reducing the cost of mats required. As enemy said the average player is doing x121212 soooo if someone somehow makes a 20 there is 0 chance they are gonna try 20 13 12 12 because well it's stupidly hard  

short terms the chance of someone making a 20 as is probably same rates as watanka dropping a +10 and yet somehow you think people will make a 20 20 20 20? 

Edited June 5, 2018 by ivmich300

[Kookz12]

+1

[Cryptx]

+1

[cocaiine]

+1.

[Gannicus_1099]

do not always think about yourself,i farm 20 days g3 for i make 9-8 g3 bad hit bad ap,,

everyone will make weapons g12 and my g3 shit 

Consider other people in the game,, yes maybe for good g3 weapons damage and ap op and make easy 15 16 g12 weapon

 

no one can throw away the item that I give my labor

g3 weapons good damge good ap and your plan is good need justice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 5, 2018 by Gannicus_1099

[kekelordz]

16 minutes ago, Gannicus_1099 said:

do not always think about yourself,i farm 20 days g3 for i make 9-8 g3 bad hit bad ap,,

everyone will make weapons g12 and my g3 shit 

Consider other people in the game,, yes maybe for good g3 weapons damage and ap op and make easy 15 16 g12 weapon

 

no one can throw away the item that I give my labor

g3 weapons good damge good ap and your plan is good need justice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The issue regarding Grade 3 weapons not feeling as strong as they should, is more so correlated to the problem with Defense Values pushing above 800.

If the Defense Values were reduced by 40 from the set bonus, across the board for all classes, you would see Grade 3 weapons preform well. 

When a Human target is debuffed, you can't say that your G3 kata isn't doing good damage. I know for myself, my 9/7 G3 crow rips nephlims apart when they are debuffed. 

So its clear.  G3 weapon + Archer debuff = very strong.   G3 weapon alone, not strong. Why? Defense too high.
G3 Kat/Crow feel weak because of defense. Not because of the strength of G12 weapons.  Even if you make a 19PSA Acord gauntlet, a G3 kata will always be the correct option when facing a human target, especially if he has strong G12 set.

 

The frustration with G12 weapons is universal and applies to every player, not just elites who are able to make many, players of all tiers are struggling immensely to create good G12 weapons. Trust me, I'm not "thinking only about myself". I have a 17/12/12/12 sword. This issue is more pressed towards players who can't reach these weapons by a long stretch.

 

 

[lllllkinglllll]

I agree with this idea.

[Gannicus_1099]

37 minutes ago, kekelordz said:

The issue regarding Grade 3 weapons not feeling as strong as they should, is more so correlated to the problem with Defense Values pushing above 800.

If the Defense Values were reduced by 40 from the set bonus, across the board for all classes, you would see Grade 3 weapons preform well. 

When a Human target is debuffed, you can't say that your G3 kata isn't doing good damage. I know for myself, my 9/7 G3 crow rips nephlims apart when they are debuffed. 

So its clear.  G3 weapon + Archer debuff = very strong.   G3 weapon alone, not strong. Why? Defense too high.
G3 Kat/Crow feel weak because of defense. Not because of the strength of G12 weapons.  Even if you make a 19PSA Acord gauntlet, a G3 kata will always be the correct option when facing a human target, especially if he has strong G12 set.

 

The frustration with G12 weapons is universal and applies to every player, not just elites who are able to make many, players of all tiers are struggling immensely to create good G12 weapons. Trust me, I'm not "thinking only about myself". I have a 17/12/12/12 sword. This issue is more pressed towards players who can't reach these weapons by a long stretch.

 

 

yes as you say.

there are bigger problems right now.

priority defensive problem must be solved

[Onionbear]

+1

[stubi]

+1 for the support

[Welph]

+1

[ivmich300]

Another good idea is we convinced you to make g11 rates easier (seasonal only) could add this same feature for g12s provide people a reason to play seasonal more not just for the sake of being able to finally level a 300

[CrixUsss]

+1   all class pdef op red mage p def op  . ithink uptate g12 weaps     17 18 19 can make  dont need nerf all class 

[shockdot]

We don't think this change should be restricted to weapons, armors have the same (if not worse) issue. Please have a look at our post in this topic.

 

[keke8929]

1 hour ago, shockdot said:

We don't think this change should be restricted to weapons, armors have the same (if not worse) issue. Please have a look at our post in this topic.

 

Changing G12 armor rates for 18+ to be reachable would most likely require the gains of defense and magic defense to be reconsidered. While the gains of AP aren't even that significant(especially on physical weapons). 17 or 19 sword? You are facing 80% mitigation, sorry but it wont make a massive difference.  Just open the possibility of players achieving 17+.

I reached a 17121212 weapon, its a 100hour wall from 16121212. Now the wall from 17121212 -> 18121212 is probably 500~1000 hours. Insanity for 200 AP?

 

I would seriously not touch Armors success rates. The defenses we're playing at right now, are very sensitive in terms of upgrades. If you gain a few successful upgrades on your pdef when around 800, you gain so much defense. So these upgrades past 800def should really be reserved for exclusive and really hard upgrades, such as 16+ defense. 

 

I would say 16set vs 17set is the new comparison of 8 set to 9 set back on Tri server before season1. but, the 9 set is more like a 18 set but you are able to push towards it slowly obtaining 17 def pieces, which aren't impossible. 

Changing upgrade rates on Armors could potentially make things far worse. 

Oh plus the fact, nobody besides me and WaxON have even gotten a weapon 17. So changing weapon rates would only be helpful for the players progressing.

While on the other hand, changing armor upgrade rates, would basically destroy everyone's hard work for their sets, nullifying all the effort every single player put in their G12 set. Honestly bad bad bad idea.

Edited June 7, 2018 by keke8929

[IKuPAI]

@shockdot @keke8929

I think that this is a great idea. Scaling the items to be easier to upgrade and lowering the values provided, making the sets we wear now more tailored to an 18/18 set instead of a 15/12 set would be nice to see!

 

however, everyone is already going to be soooo mad about putting all that effort and resources into their sets they wear right now.

 

reading your reply immediately devalued my 15/12 set which IS NOT bare minimum, and is ACTUALLY top tier... 14/10 is a bare minimum set. 

Having 915(788) pdef

and 750(758) mdef

on my fist in an incomplete 15/12 set I would be very sad to see this disappear right before the season ends.

However, I would find great value in improving my AP from 5.5k to something reasonable.

 

If armor rates were to change I believe that they would need to be scaled to the proper defensive values. ex: 15/12 = 17/15 after update

but that means that weapons would also need scaling? turning a 17/12/12/12 into a 19/15/15/15?

and 16/12/12/12 into 18/15/15/15?

does this allow room for sup sephs to upgrade them to 15 safely? should we expect +10 safe on g12?

DO WE ALL STOP UPGRADING NOW?!

CAN WE CONTINUE UPGRADING safely without wasting materials from today until... whenever the update happens?

 

so many questions!

[keke8929]

Dont touch gear.  Defensive ceeling needs to be far higher than offensive.  

So what, we're stuck with +9 Equivalent G12 weapons X/12/12/12 untill season4? Lol.